Donkey Test Question #7...

[Cracker]

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 11"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Czam3126%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:sans; panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-alt:"Times New Roman"; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-formatther; mso-font-pitch:auto; mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style>5/10 NL Cash game. 10 handed. Everyone has about $1,000. Solid player UTG limps. A tight player in middle raises to $40, a tight aggressive player behind him re-raises to $150, and the button puts in a third raise for half his stack to $500.

You are in the BB with:

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What should you do?
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[HonestRob]

lol This is so sick. Do we know anything about button? I think folding or shoving can both be ok here but calling is dumb. If button wasn't in the pot I'd easily raise and get it in. With button making that raise I don't really know what to do but it's looking like one of those rare times where I might fold KK PF.

 

[festeringZit]

I'll admit it, I've never folded KK pre flop. But, I rarely
play full tables.

So... chances are I'd push here - but wouldn't feel to great
about doing it.

 

[theDude24]

push and hope button does not have AA

depending who button is this could be a nice squeeze for him - and he would probably do it with AK or QQ/JJ.

I say push - don't look at the money involved (b/c if you have $1000 on the table i'd hope it isn't your whole roll)

I push for sure

 

[shdw01]

push and luckbox your way to a set of Ks when 2 guys on your table have AA and cannot improve.

 

[robertlanglois]

I folded KK preflop earlier to a raise but it was because I timed out. (I'm that bad).

Turns out opponent had AK and got another A on the turn. I would have lost.

 

[Cracker]

This would have to be a tough one to do but you have to lay it down IMO. You would more than likely be up against at least 1 PP maybe 2 and A(k-j). You can't call b/c one of the first two raisers are likely to shove and then you have to call when there is a chance you don't have the best hand.

And to top it all off if you do have KK and say you are up against AK, 99 and JJ for example not that you don't have them all beat and AK has 3 outs, 99 has 2 outs and JJ has 2 outs but you now have 7 cards that can beat you instead of just 2 or 3.

 

[HonestRob]

And to top it all off if you do have KK and say you are up against AK, 99 and JJ for example not that you don't have them all beat and AK has 3 outs, 99 has 2 outs and JJ has 2 outs but you now have 7 cards that can beat you instead of just 2 or 3.

But this is made up for with pot odds. Let's look at your example. We get it all in, in a 4-way pot. We have KK against AK, JJ, and 99. For simplicity I'll round off the pot size. There's 4,000 in the pot. 1,000 of it is ours so our pot odds are 3 to 1. We only need to win this pot 1 in 4 times to break even or 25% of the time. Now let's see how KK plays against those three hands.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.967% 42.76% 00.21% 802416456 3907521.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 22.126% 21.92% 00.21% 411314436 3907521.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 18.229% 18.14% 00.08% 340501212 1588653.00 { JJ }
Hand 3: 16.678% 16.59% 00.08% 311397372 1588653.00 { 99 }

We win 42% of the time. Way more than the 25% we need to.

 

[Cracker]

But this is made up for with pot odds. Let's look at your example. We get it all in, in a 4-way pot. We have KK against AK, JJ, and 99. For simplicity I'll round off the pot size. There's 4,000 in the pot. 1,000 of it is ours so our pot odds are 3 to 1. We only need to win this pot 1 in 4 times to break even or 25% of the time. Now let's see how KK plays against those three hands.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.967% 42.76% 00.21% 802416456 3907521.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 22.126% 21.92% 00.21% 411314436 3907521.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 18.229% 18.14% 00.08% 340501212 1588653.00 { JJ }
Hand 3: 16.678% 16.59% 00.08% 311397372 1588653.00 { 99 }

We win 42% of the time. Way more than the 25% we need to.

But now make the assumption that either your tight player with his raise or your tight aggressive on the button are holding AA. What does that do? Does that still win the 25% of the time? And what suppose you push with your KK and UTG folds, Tight player folds and tight aggressive calls with his AA. I just have a feeling this is where you lay down KK preflop.

 

[HonestRob]

But now make the assumption that either your tight player with his raise or your tight aggressive on the button are holding AA. What does that do? Does that still win the 25% of the time? And what suppose you push with your KK and UTG folds, Tight player folds and tight aggressive calls with his AA. I just have a feeling this is where you lay down KK preflop.

I'm not advocating shoving. Just addressing what you wrote. You seemed to be saying that being against AK, JJ and 99 would be a bad thing.

 

[Cracker]

Ok, I see your point.

 

[DeathEatsaCracker]

I've never folded KK pre-flop, but I might in this situation.

 

[viking611]

i'm all in!!!

 

[papicker]

with 2 reraises in front of me i could fold kk, and thats what we got here, they have no info on the button, if hes the slightest bit loose though im not folding.

 

[majestikmoose]

I never ever fold this.... Fist pump shove. Some has AA = cooler

 

[ProPokerPlayer]

A tight player in middle raises to $40 AJs, a tight aggressive player behind him re-raises to $150 AQ, and the button puts in a third raise for half his stack to $500. QQ

See if they will let u add car titles to the pot...hopefully the QQ is driving a Winnebago.......

 

[Cusipz]

Only time to fold KK pre flop is tourney bubble situation.

Cash game like this, I've lost $1000 much worse than shoving with KK. If an AA is out there, so be it.

 

[Scoops]

You also have to take into account that a couple of these people will possibly fold so that would make you going against only 1 opponent or possibly 2(and a very slight chance they will all fold),not necesseraly 3 or 4 opponents.

 

[OnWisconsin]

i think it's all in or fold right here. if you just call, you're giving the next guy about 3 to one odds to make a call, and assuming he raised UTG, then he likes his hand enough to play it at those odds. once he calls, the next guy would be getting 4 to one to come in. at this point, i'd play just about any hand preflop with those odds unless i was playing with money i was scared of losing (in which case i shouldn't be there in the first place).....

by shoving, if he's a solid player, we assume we can get him to fold A/K or A/Q, or a pocket pair like 10s or J/J. at this point, i'd just want to take the pot down here, because in all likely hood, somebody's got an ace.

the only time i remember folding K/K in a cash game was about 3 years ago, playing 1/2 NL. thought i was making a solid fold against two all ins, but one guy had A/K, the other had A/Q, and a K came on the flop. cost myself about $500 bucks by not playing it.....these days, if i'm sitting on K/K preflop and someone has A/A, then they're just gonna have to take my money. but i want to force out as many hands as possible, namely the Ax suited or suited connector guy trying to get a lucky flop in a pot where someone obviously has a high PP....

 

[Scoops]

Yes it is definitely All In or Fold.